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Lucky Dog Farm
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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Lucky Dog Farm Reply with quote

I have been visiting this site for some time now, and commenting every now and then. Our story is very different, and I thought it might be worth telling. Briefly we are two professional people from the DC area who have for alot of reasons decided about 1.5 years ago to transition out of the craziness of the life we were in to a life that was both meaningful and hopefully sustainabble. I am 50 and the wonderful woman that I am heading down this road with is 47. We have read all the Coleman, Salatin, Jeavons books etc. that we could get our hands on, and they have been very helpful. CP, Singing Pig, Andy, Cosmic Lettuce have all been excellent resources as well.

I'm writing this because everyone we tell our story to always seems envious about doing something similar. If you read Heinberg, who is one of the most dire forecasters of the future as it relates to Peak Oil, there will need to be 57 million Americans farming in the not too distant future to make up for the loss of our fossil fuel based economy. Would enjoy discussing this with folks on this site, but that isn't the purpose of my post. The purpose is to, maybe, show folks that have thought about doing the same thing that it isn't really impossible.

We looked for a farm that was within 5 hours of DC, that was dirt cheap, and that was also located within an hour of some kind of cultural center. We found what we were looking for in Steuben County New York. We purchased 20 acres of certified organic pastureland, with 14 acres of hardwood, and 15,000 square feet of barns for 60K. It takes us 40 minutes to get to Ithaca which gives us all the cultural pursuits that we could ask for.

Are we making money? Nope not at all, but what we have done is turn the largest (6,000 square feet) barns into a 4,800 square foot green house and a 1,200 sqare foot house. Now begins the making money part. We picked 5 hours because we figured we could get up here on 3 day weekends, and make the changes while still keeping our jobs. Its been really really stupid sometimes but we seem to have turned a corner.

Today with an outside temperature of 24 degrees max, and WNW wind of around 25 mph, and a good amount of sunshine in the afternoon we maxed out at 72 degrees in the greenhouse. It seems like we are finally ready to start planting things. Tonight we're going down to 6 degrees with a wind chill of -10. Even with those conditions we should be OK. Seeds arrive next week; we have a system set up to heat the raised beds which I will describe in depth in future posts. WE have run alot of small scale experiments and so far things have worked well. Have spend alot of time painting everything in the greenhouse white, and insulating the back wall. In all cases we have been able to use stuff that was already here.

So that's it for now. I'll try to stay consistant with posting. Love comments and if anyone wants to see pics, we have alot of them loaded on snapfish, and can point you in that direction if you would like to take a look.

Have a wonderful evening.

Ed

Live simply so others can simply live
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willing hands farm



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Philadelphia +Chester county

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ed,

I would love to see pics of your place and details on heating the greenhouse beds. Do you have a greenhouse or high tunnel? Sometimes folks use these terms interchangably.

Julie
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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Morning Julie:

I will get the snapfish address and post it. Actually what we have done is took the barn that is oriented east/west, and tore all of the metal roof and wall panels off and replaced them with twin wall polycarbonate. Did most of it myself. CP came down for a day and helped, but it has taken a while to get it down. The beauty of it, is that it has a concrete slab, which regulates the temperature and humidity. Night before last, it was 3 degrees outside and calm, the temperature in the peak of the gh went down to only 26 with no heating system. The temperature in the soil beds (2 inches thick) I'm experimenting with went down to 34. I covered them, which is what I will do anyway, but I wall pretty pleased with that. Yesterday it was cloudy all day, but even then the temperature in the peak got up to 42, with an outside temperature of only 18.

Right now I have two beds built on top of the stalls that were in place each of which is about 500 square feet. I'm putting in 3/4 inch poly pipe as the heating source and then will lay redwood snow fence on top of it, then landscaping cloth, then a mixture of compost, vermiculite, and peat.

The heat source was/is going to be compost with pipes laid in it. Google Jean Pain, and you will get the idea. Have found a few other places that have done it kind of successfully. I'll post the websites. For each bed I only need about 100-11 gallons of hot water so I'm thinking for this winter (it's all about experimenting) I may just hook up to a water heater and use that to make sure it all works. Long term the compost, or some sort of Eddy Current Heater will be used. Yesterday my neighbor was telling me that if you hook up a truck radiator under glass and orient towards the south you should be able to get all the hot water you need. His brother did it when he was living in a trailer. They had to disconnect it in May because it was melting the poly pipe.

Ed

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CP Knerr



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Scottsville, NY

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Hi there Ed! Reply with quote

Hi Ed,

Glad to see Lucky Dog Farm is on the forums!

Sounds like temps are holding pretty solid down there, which is great. How is the snow on the roof? Does it slide off or do you have to broom it off? We've been getting snow off of Ontario which is really light and dry so I would guess it's blowing nicely right off your roof.

Have anything growing in the beds yet or just waiting on seeds?

What seeds are you going to experiment with first?

Glad things are still going great, have a great evening!

CP
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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far so good. I get up on a ladder and broom it off, which doesn't make alot of difference when its cloudy like it has been.

The compost structure that I was going to build with the straw bales go put on hold, since I waited to long. The ground is frozen and I cannot drive rebar. To make sure this works I am going to test it with a more traditional heating source. Lance is going to loan me his propane water heater. I ran the pipes under the grow tables yesterday, so in the next week or so, I should be able to give things a try. Things slowed yesterday since a skunk got into it with a woodchuck or cat in the back barn and stunk the place out.

TWO QUESTIONS:

1. How careful do I need to be with venting this propane heather? The amount of water I will need to heat is around 12 gallons. I need to finish up the research on the temperature required, but I think around 100 degrees would be enough. I don't see it running for anymore than maybe 10 minutes.

2. Where would I find a source of corn cobs???? Sounds like a really stupid question, and maybe it is, but I've checked with the two dairy farmers nearest us and apparantly they just leave them in the field. The reason I ask is that I saw where this guy out in Wisconsin uses ground up cobs in lieu of vermiculite in his soil mix. Any ideas!!

On the seeds, I filled up two order pages with Johnny's. Mostly small packets. I went through a picked the varieties that were best with low light and cool weather.

I finally got in touch with my local electrician, and he is going to help me build some prototypes of an "overdriven" flourescent light fixture. I'll post on how it goes. If anyone is interested I'll post the address at geocities.com where you can find 66 pages of information.

Ed

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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK no answers on the technical questions. I think I have the propane thing figured out. There are vented and ventless models of water heaters. Since I only have to heat 10 gallons of water at a time, it doesn't seem as if I need to worry if I vent or not. Heating 10 gallons 50 degrees is only supposed to take 10-12 minutes, which I have figured is enough to heat a 450 square foot grow table with 1 inch pipes spaced 12 inches on center. Need to know if this will work, then I can switch over to water heated with compost (preferred) or with methane gas.

Still nothing on the corn cobs, but I have been asking alot of people in the area. What I have found is that if you do this, then eventually someone will show up and have a solution. It's one of the beauties of being in a town of 900 people.

Everything in the greenhouse was frozen when I got here (been away for 6 days). It has been a whole lot colder than normal, and I'm having some issues with my GH roof. If the wind is not blowing the snow stays on the roof. My pitch is not steep enough, and I knew that going in. What happened is that we had some snow, and it melted on the bottom, and then it turned very cold, down to 0 which froze the slush. I wasn't here to broom it off. I spent a better part of the day working on that. It's tricky you need to get the snow off if it doesn't blow off, and if it's up there for a while, then you need to wait for it until it warms up inside, and then it slides right off.

Part of my plan is to grow some products under lights. In my past life I was a China trader and did alot with a CFL's. The factory that we do business with in China also makes CFL grow lights. The intention here is to offer them through the NOFA newsletter for next to nothing. I'll also find out if there are enough folks interested in biodegradable pint containers and degradable plastic bags (I call them T-shirt bags). So if you are NOFA members I'll look forward to your feed back. These are simple little things that can make a difference.

CP, I think my seeds are in at my neighbors. I'll start them as soon as I get this heating thing figured out. My tomatoes continue to do amazingly well.

Ed

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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see our password requirement is back. If that's what it takes to get rid of the garbage, then so be it. Last post I forgot to recommend two books that I have been reading.

Handy Farm Devices by Rolfe Cobleigh

Country Wisdom and Know How by Store Books

The 2nd one is amazing. 500 pages 11" x 18" book with practical advice on an incredible number of subjects. All for 18 dollars at Barnes and Noble.

Still trying to figure the f'ing ice build up on the greenhouse roof. Seems to have alot to do with when I try and sweep the snow off. More later on this.

On another note, I had read about some folks that ran their stove pipe out through their greenhouse and built a table over the top of it for starting seeds. I tried it and the heat generated into the greenhouse, even through an insulated pipe is pretty amazing.

Last note: I had a bunch of greens growing in a 3' x 5' tub in the greenhouse. When I got up here they were all "dead". and the soil temp was 20. Had them in the house today, and they all look great. Had some for dinner, and they were quite delicious. Also cooked yams on the wood stove, which worked out really well.

OK last and final note: Tomorrow we'll try and hook up the propane water heating system for the growing tables. Also will get raw milk for making yogurt. Have made quite a bit from organic store bought with some success. Neighbor farmer is willing to give us all the milk we want in exchange for yogurt in return.

Interesting happenings in Mexico with their largest and the world's 2nd largest oil field Cantarell crashing. Read more at peakoil.com

Ed

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chicky momma



Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Brooklyn, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ed,

Nice to read about all your adventures and ideas.

On the raw milk/yogurt thing. Are you making yogurt or kefir? I have not made yogurt but do make kefir regularly. Have been told that its better for you even than yogurt. Don't know whether this is true or not but I like it. If I ever get enough milk I want to try making cheese. Right now demand exceeds supply at our cowshare. Lisa
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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chicky Mama:

Just yogurt at this point.

Please tell me about your cowshare. The reason I ask is that my neighbor's cows provide 800 gallons of organic milk a week with a very high fat content. We are in NY where everyone is supposed to use a USDA approved kitchen. My neighbor would switch in a minute to producing yogurt, but he's worried about having a large enough market to get rid of the stuff if he goes full scale. On the other hand I'd be willing to invest some money in an approved kitchen, take some of his milk, to make yogurt and cheese if it is worth it on a smaller small scale. Your input on all of this would be valuable.

Mother nature was very kind today. The wind howled all day long, and blew most of the ice and snow build up off of the GH. The sun was out a bit, and we got up to about 55 degrees. Pipes are in place under the grow benches and the propane water heater should be here tomorrow. Once again if it works our plan is to switch the heat source from propane to compost. Just have to know first, that just heating the soil in this climate works.

CP, if you are around, how was NOFA?

Ed

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chicky momma



Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 43
Location: Brooklyn, Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ed,

Our cowshare we found on localharvest.org you should also check out realmilk.com and the westonaprice.com websites all about raw milk and where to find it. As well as forms etc...

Ours we found thru a co-op, we paid a membership fee then are allowed to purchase milk, cheese etc...

Right now demand exceeds supply for our farmer as well as others in the area. We pay $6 gallon for milk.

As for the approved kitchen, I know here that approved kitchens also include church kitchens on loan.

I would think it would defininatly be worth it specially with the "artisan" cheese idea. In a near by town here they're doing great business with this idea. I think you can check them out at www.zingermans.com

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress. Lisa
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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fascinating. How does that work with a church. Do you make some kind of arrangement to pay them a portion of the profits? Our plan calls for donating a certain amount of our earnings to charitable causes as a standard, but this would be a really good extension of that plan.'

6 dollars a gallon for milk? The standard here is 0.75 per gallon for standard run of the mill. 2.50 dollars a gallon is for organic high fat content milk. 6 dollars sounds a bit expensive, but in the end I'm very new to all of this. I did go to the websites you suggested, thank you very much.

Now on to the daily journal thing. Went looking for perlite or vermiculite today, and found one bag of it after visiting 3 different stores. I guess the Bath/Corning area is not set up for this, at this time of year. I'm going to check with some of the other farms in the area to look for corn cobs, as a substitute.

Had a visit from the tax assessor today, which being from DC, seemed a little unusual. Now I know his name. I know the name of the person who works on our electrical lines, plows our roads and delivers our mail. There is something very reassuring in that. The also know way to much about us.

Today was alot of sunshine, and we maxed out at 94 degrees in the peak of the greenhouse. Outside it was a wind chill of 12. Worked all afternoon in my short sleeves.

Final note: Matt Simmons on Bloomberg today said that we are at Peak Oil now. Matt is a very respected oil man who has advised several presidents (including the present one) on energy. Until today he has never made a prediction on peak. He said that in 2 years this occurance would be having a bigger effect on us than GW.

One final note: For those of you who are on dial up (we are). We can get amazing music on AOL, as well as WGBH lectures series that goes on for ever. I don't understand how this works, but old favorites like booktv.org take a bit more speed.

Cheers

Ed

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CP Knerr



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Scottsville, NY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:46 pm    Post subject: Conference Notes and Cowshares Reply with quote

Ed:

Conference news up on Black Creek Farm thread. In a few words: Best conference yet.

I met a person who milks a cow in a cowshare arrangement and who also had some Weston Price Foundation information at the conference. A very interesting guy and we talked quite a while. He mainly did it for health reasons as he can't buy what he needs anymore in the stores. The gentleman lives with his family and 3 cows in Honeoye Falls, NY, where I buy my beer from a local micro-microbrewery. Not sure if anyone wants goat's milk near me but I should have a glut of it come spring (if I can keep them milked!)

The farm with the year-round CSA (which I'd mention but it keps getting mod-edited by the forum) supplies milk as well. They aren't inspected and milk by hand. The way they have their milk set up is, you're buying a share of the farm, not milk explicitly, and the contents of the farm fridge belong to everyone who is a member of the farm. They are working with a lawyer to make sure that all this is worded correctly to avoid problems, but it seems to be working for them. They also produce yogurt and some other milk products.

I will find more information on the program I had mentioned in my Black Creek Farm thread entries that they are trying to set up in Ithaca to source local, humanely raised foods to connect farmers to restaurants and get it to you, I would expect you'd be interested. If we are able to work with them it could bring huge benefits to everyone involved.

Keep that snow off your roof! It's supposed to get cold this weekend and next week!

CP
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Ohiorganicrganic



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 40
Location: SW Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,

you are a good writer you should consider creating a blog about your farming experience. More non farmers will read about it instead of us here who aready have been farming. check out my blog http://boulerbelt.blogspot.com and also check out the other farm blogs that have links on my blog to get an idea of what I am talking about.

I am a cowshare member here in Ohio where selling raw milk to the public is illegal. I pay $5.50 a gallon for raw milk ($22 month per cow share). The reason raw milk is so pricy is because of two things

1) Supply and demand, more demand than farmers can supply

2) It is illegal in almost all states to sell the stuff
farmers as of late have been getting majorly harrassed by the local law enforcement folks and their state depts of Agriculture. Several raw milk dairies around me (Southern Ohio) have been shut down and their products and records confescated. The program I belong to had to recently change how they do things and had all their members fill out and sign a 17 page contract (and this may not be enough to keep this share program going legally)
_________________
Lucy Goodman
Boulder Belt Farm
Eaton, OH
Checked out the blog lately?
http://boulderbelt.blogspot.com
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Ed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CP: Thanks for the update. That's interesting on the CSA/milk thing. It always seems that if you can find the legitimate loop hole, they will find a way to close down. Now I'm mad that we didn't go. Please save your notes and we'll get together soon. I'm writing away tonight because Jen got as far as Williamsport and stopped because of the weather. She will continue tomorrow morning.
Ohioorganic: thanks for the kind words, and the information on the milk. I am writing here mainly because I always have alot of questions at the end of the day, and alot of times they have been answered here. So here we go.

If you want to have compost in your greenhouse for the winter get it in before things freeze. I had to break it up with a pick, but once I got by the first 6 inches it was incredible, there were all these tiny worms doing there thing. I've always read that worms need 55-60 to stay healthy, but this soil was definately not 60 degrees. Makes me wonder what I can do in the pole barn vis-a-vis vermiculture during the winter. Anyone have any experience with this? There was also this nasty root growing out of a hole in the tarp that was over the compost pile. The thing was still alive, after numerous days at or close to zero.

For those of you who are stuck on dial up, I recommend WGBH forums out of Boston. Lectures and programs on an incredible variety of things.
Booktv, princeton lecture series won't work with dial up. WGBH is awesome, and you get video, which is usually nothing more than someone standing there talking.

A couple of notes on a composting toilet. We have the one with the heater which we thought was great until we read the fine print and saw that it used 500 watts per hour, and and realized it was costing us 30 dollars a month. In addition the eletric fan system sucks all the hot air out of the house. It's turned off now, and the house is actually warm for the first time this winter. Another one of those, how are you supposed to know.

Last point: We are making alot of our pots out of insect screen. They work very very well, but they are a pain to make. Does anyone have a good way of making these?

Ed

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AndyF



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Phelps, NY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,

Regarding raw milk, in NY you can get a permit to sell raw milk. It has to be sold at the farm from the bulk tank into the customer's container, but it can be done. The farm I get my milk from has a permit. They sell once a week for 3 hours and have a fair number of regular customers. They sell by the gallon and don't do any cow share type thing. You just buy milk when you want to.

If you're interested in doing cheese or yogurt, you might want to check with the food entrepreneurship center at the Geneva Experiment Station. They have several people who can help guide you through the governmental rules and regs..
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